"Film of the Week" Club

[Casablanca]

About the dialogue being choppy and forced, I have to disagree with what you said about how it was good because it made the characters feel "plain" and "open to attachment". I felt that Rachel Roth especially was TOO plain, and better dialogue could have spiced up her character a little more.

Yes, it could have spiced things up, but then, in my view, it would be out of place, as really, everything about this film was empty; and as for being "too plain"; yes, I think she was as plain as plain can be, and while that wasn't perfect, I feel it wasn't bad. In reality, I suppose that a teenage girl, anti-social, no less, would talk like that; and that is something I felt here, a mix of fantasy and reality, or, as you said a "film" which “did seem more of a teenage drama than a superhero film". So, as we are split on that, I admit, I see your view; however, I see the other view too, I can really go both ways, but prefer go this route.

I too think the Emo/gothic approach to the film is hit or miss with certain viewers. It didn't bother me as much as I would have normally expected, but I think for some it may.

No disagreement there.

And again I disagree with you on the pregnancy FB that ran too long. Yes, pregnancies are long, but this is a 2 hour film give or take. A film about Rachel Roth. I don't think it was a good idea to remove her completely from the film and look at her backstory for what would amount to fifteen-twenty minutes of the film. Not straight through. Breaking them up into maybe three sections would have been a better idea, I think.

Yes, I see what you mean, somewhat like a ratio, correct? Since this is a two hour film, ratio the pregnancy down to match it? I do think that, as it was done, it made itself too central a part of the film, it seemed like it was bigger then it really was. And cutting it into parts could help, but the scene isn't so much the problem as the way it was approached. Now that I think of it, you are probably more right then I about it being too long, but I still think it could have gotten away with it, if the past subplot was more emphasized on. So, yes, I agree there, cutting it into sections is best for what we were given, but not for what we could have had.

Now the ferris wheel scene wasn't bad, even though I didn't care for it that much. But the sex scene was just too much for me. The dialogue during it and the silliness of it just put me off. It may just be me, I don't know. I just really wasn’t digging it.

Another agreement, the Ferris wheel scene was better then the sex scene, by quite a bit, though, the silliness did add a naivety to the character, it wasn't as much charm as it could have been. I understand why you don't like it. I saw it as a unique scene, but then again, unique doesn't always mean "good". I tend to not judge this scene so much as to just recognize it is there. It doesn't help at all, and it doesn't, to a large extent, hurt the film; it just is one of the many quirks of the film.

About the final confrontation between Rachel and Trigon...it wasn't so much that the particular battle was rushed, so much as that the story, which ultimately became the climax to the movie, didn't really have anything to do with the story until the very end. I mean, it seemed like it was on the backburner throughout the entire story until the last ten minutes.

Wording it like that, I know see, more clearly what you mean. He sort of came in late (and scarce) and then the scene was written to make it look like a big deal, maybe to mask the fact that Trigon had little development to him. I think it was a decent attempt to mask it, but let’s face it; it would have been alot better if development was added to Trigon. The film easily could have been 20 or more pages longer.

However, I have a question for you, and that is, knowing xplay likes a somewhat "absurd" style (not in a bad way), could more surrealism have enhanced the film? What could have made the style of it better?

[Dale]

i'm gonna read the raven at some point today. so i won't feel so left out and can participate in the conversation.

[T-Mac]

Jan 19, 2009 0:49:33 GMT -5 Dale said:

i'm gonna read the raven at some point today. so i won't feel so left out and can participate in the conversation.

Yeah, me too.

[Hanelle]

I think that is too much of a bias answer depending on the style of film you enjoy to be honest. I'm a huge fan of David Lynch, so surrealism if done well is always welcome to me. But I think the majority of people wouldn't really be thrilled about an abstract/surreal film for the most part.

I think the mood of the film was fine. Dark, lonely, etc. I just think the execution was a bit off is all.

Daz/T-Mac I hope you both will

[Dale]

Just finished The Raven, but I’m in agreement with several things Hanelle said. The dialogue wasn't particularly good in places. It seemed scripted and convenient; it didn't seem cold nor make me feel the character's pain. It didn’t symbolize the emptiness or plainness of characters, it just seemed lazy and poorly written. And having read Xplay’s previous work, it’s clear to see dialogue is far from his strong suit and leads me to believe it wasn’t intentionally done here. I think you’re giving him too much credit Casa.

The dialogue completely destroyed any chance of me liking the Rachel Roth character because quite frankly she was plain, boring, with nothing memorable about her. She was just uninteresting, and unfortunately the supporting cast was just as boring (with Matt’s catchphrase of “so, um...” - which then became a catchphrase for seemingly everyone else - getting an unintentional chuckle out of me) so there was nothing really to peak and keep my interest. There was nobody to connect with and I quickly bored of reading it. It also felt like lines repeated time and time again. Rachel explained that she lived in London, and didn’t remember much before that at least three times, and every single time it was worded almost exactly the same. Which made reading even more tiresome.

And Casa, you say we got to know Rachel quite thoroughly. I'd have to whole heartedly disagree with that comment. I didn't feel like we got to know her at all. All we found out was the repeated London story and the impression that she was lost. She was generic to boot and bored me from start to finish. I never felt for her, I never cared about her, or her "friends". I didn't care one way or another. I didn't care enough to even dislike her. She was a piss poor character for me.

You also said the powers didn't need to be explained, and this didn't need to be about "The Raven" - but the fact of the matter is, it is a movie about "The Raven". the powers did need to be explained for people not familiar with the character from the comic books. Without it, all we know is she has "powers, like flying and stuff" and it's not good enough.

did the film need more surrealism? No, not at all. What it needs is polishing. It needs to be worked on, character arcs like Trigon's need to be expanded. Character's like Matt need to have a purpose other than being the vessel. Rachel needs to be interesting in some way so we actually give a sh*t about the story. And some heavy editing is needed to tighten up the story, and fixing up the dialogue to make it at least somewhat passable.

I know I’m not one to critique grammatical errors, or spelling errors for that matter. Sometimes I’m thinking so far ahead in the sentence I miss whole words completely. But there were some pretty bad ones in here and it was distracting. Proofreading is your friend. And quickly skimming through it can be a nice acquaintance.

The emo/gothic/teenage drama stuff was expected, but I felt like it was rammed down my throat from page one and should have been used in more moderation. It seemed every other scene we were treated to Roth’s emotasticness and it got fairly annoying. In fact it just became so damn depressing to read and I literally had to force myself to finish because it was so over done. Less is more.

I read Casa and Hanelle’s comments on the Ferris wheel Scene and Sex Scene, so I wasn’t expecting much from them. And good job I didn’t because they were both fairly cringe worthy and awkwardly written. And the dialogue was especially bad here. I wouldn’t call it a quirk, I’d call it a flaw. It did hurt the film in my opinion, and more than a little bit.

The ending felt Hanc*cky to me. You had an ok-ish story going, and then brought in other elements, rushed them and as a result it felt tacked on and under developed. Probably could have been saved for a sequel, not that I’d really want one after this.

I love surrealism, and abstract stuff. I liked Little Piece of Heaven in all its necrophilia/cannibalistic goodness but I did not like this. The only saving grace is the great description.

After seeing "The Raven" rank so highly on Casa’s top ten list I was really looking forward to it, and I was completely underwhelmed. Also, I have to ask what exactly Casa was smoking when he put it so high hehe. Maybe I’m being unnecessarily harsh because my expectations were so high, and I was so disappointed. But in all honesty, I wouldn’t rank this higher than a ** out of *** because I just didn’t think it was very good and it was one of the only films on MR I literally had to force myself to finish.

The Raven

Xplay’s style appeals to me greatly, I adore the absolute absurdity of it all, the incoherent disregard for normality. This would be his finest film, I suppose, because we place ourselves in the shoes of the character so much as to become one with them. It almost forces ourselves to look into our memory, our past and confront our own heartbreaks, and that is a brave and daring idea.

I couldn't disagree more with this Casa. The Raven didn't put us in the shoes of anyone, the characters had no depth or personality to become one with them. "Almost forces us to look into our own memory?" it almost forces us to stop reading because it's mindless repetative drivel. It's not a daring brave idea, it's an under developed story that only scratched the surface of what it could have been ... if that. I can't help but wonder if we read the same movie Casa.

I'm a fan of Xplay's work, I too enjoyed the escapism and absurdity of Little Piece of Heaven but "The Raven" had none of the qualities of LPH and all of it's flaws, times a hundred.

To summarise, I really, really didn't like this. It was a bundle full of average with a little bit of sh*t thrown in.

[Natalie]

So having read Hanelle's, Casa's and Daz's take on The Raven, its pretty much made me not want to read The Raven, but I did but wasn't looking forward to it.

I agree with Daz, no surprise there, but he makes excellent points, but what I don't want is for Xplay to come back and see his film has been slated by several members for an entire week, not forgetting this is finishing Saturday

The film kinda bored me, and I skipped through certain parts, correct spelling is a big thing of mine, andI generally found it annoying, I know you can't help it if you're dyslexic or whatever, but like Hanelle said, it literally takes minutes.

I didn't connect with Rachel, and I hated the emo thing going on, I think this film had the potential to be great but just didn't surpass.

I don't think Daz or Hanelle were harsh, its all about constructive critisism, and if Xplay were to read this, I hope it helps him develop better films and produce better script/dialogue.


I've nothing much else to say on the matter, other than, I read these comments before reading the film, so already I knew I wouldn't like it, and I'm not conforming with the majority, it was just weak in terms of not Xplays best work.

[Casablanca]

Oh, no, not harsh at all, it is deserved in many respects. I am typing a response now though, I'll post it in a bit.

[Casablanca]

"I think you’re giving him too much credit Casa."

First off, if you ask me "is this good dialogue?". Then no, I'd answer "of course not". After I first read it, I was talking to xplay and I told him "This fil may suck, in fact, many people will not like it; but for me, it works". The dialogue is not good at all, but I feel it suits the script much more then the typical adventurous/thriller dialogue which other films have. If it stuck "to suit", it would have seemed distracting, I feel, and would have pried itself away from whatever point it was trying to reach. Also, funny you say dialogue is not Xplay's strong spot, because he feels it is his best talent, he did write Comic Shop, which was nothing but dialogue. As for if he did it intentionally or not, I have no clue, nor will I ever know; but I always have a rule. What I see was done for a reason. I like to think enough work goes into films to have certain aspects stand out for some reason. Getting to my point though, this bad dialogue worked "for me", and that is because it didn't distract me. I am quite frankly surprised I even remember the film, as what this movie did, more then tell me a story, was make me remember, or reflect, back to my own life. Again, this may be specifically for me, as we all have different attitudes and life events; but the dialogue made it easy for me to do, it didn't pry me into a forced story; and I feel that is what would have happened. If it had the bombastic writing, the plentiful script, I feel the story would be forced, and banal, really. Could he have found something to work with in the middle? Yes, perhaps. Again, from a technical point, I would be the first to say that this writing deserves to be mocked, photographed and hung on a poster advertising how not to write a script. Though, for me, this is how a depressed person would talk, would act; not in thrilling conversation and unneeded wit. Don't take that last sentence as justification though, all in all, the dialogue is both bad and "workable".

"She was plain, boring"

This is because of the dialogue, I assume, as that was really the driving force of the film. And while she did act as a normal depressed person would (boring, plain), I admit she could have been more "cinematically depressed", for viewer pleasure.

"You say we got to know Rachel quite thoroughly"

What I meant (and sorry if I did say that, as it came out wrong), is that I saw my feelings through her. She is probably the emptiest character to ever grace the screen, as she doesn't represent a personality, only a channel. I, for a few moments, allowed myself to channel my feelings through her, and see them played out in front of me. I don't expect everyone to do this, nor did I even do it all the time. But when I did do it, I liked it.

"It is a movie about "The Raven""

I think the major flaw of this film was making the character based off of a comic book character. You are right, people expect to see the character they know, and that is xplay's bad; he should have made the character his own invention, and then he would have more freedom, I feel.

"Character arcs like Trigon's need to be expanded"

I agree with you

"Fixing up the dialogue to make it at least somewhat passable."

If you mean "passable" as in "good writing", then yes, I agree this would make Hollywood laugh in their seats.

"Proofreading is your friend."

Something I agree on alot too, though, I must say, I can learn alot from this peice of advice myself.

"And the dialogue was especially bad here"

Yes, I'll admit I didn't connect with that dialogue

"The ending felt Hanc*cky to me"

The battle scene? Yes, out of place somewhat. The very ending? I sort of liked it, it gave it the final fantasy touch.

"Also, I have to ask what exactly Casa was smoking"

Obviously whatever xplay smoked when he wrote this. I want to make it known right now though, this is the same list with SoE on there! Is it the "best films on MR?" Hell no, I'd make that list, but it'd be boring. This list is the films which made me go "huh? Well, that’s unique", and the ones which personally effected me more. To say it for a third and final time, the film is technically bad. Where it is good is how I managed to adapt to it. In fact, in my review I warned everyone that it would be hard to like, and they won't.

But, you make a Brunch of darned fine opinions Daz, and many good points; so much so, that I had to think pretty hard to justify my own, and I perhaps even refined a bit of mine. Great conversation going here.

[Natalie]

Jan 19, 2009 16:41:38 GMT -5 Casablanca said:

But, you make a Brunch of darned fine opinions Daz,

You sly sly bastard, how can he disagree with you now? well played my son.

[Dale]

you sly bastard indeed.

[SCF]

House of Dracula next week tbh

[T-Mac]

I share much of the same opinions as Daz when it comes to "The Raven".

I felt some of the descriptive language was really good and encouraging at the beginning, but it trailed off at the end. The dialogue just never seemed to get on a roll.. at all. The ferris wheel scene is a perfect example of that. The descriptive stuff was fine, but the dialogue made things really awkward and forced.

It's just an odd movie, period. It has glimpses of a mature film, but it comes off mostly as a teen drama. I know Xplay's role model is Tim Burton, but that style I feel didn't come off with "The Raven".

Probably not Xplay's best effort to date.

[Casablanca]

It's just an odd movie, period. It has glimpses of a mature film, but it comes off mostly as a teen drama. I know Xplay's role model is Tim Burton, but that style I feel didn't come off with

I agree with all of this, I think the reasons I like it are of my own doing, mostly, which explains why I find it one of my personal choices besides one of the better films on the site. I think what Xplay tried to do is different then what he did.

[Xplayadam]

Using the school computer, just read all the reviews and to be honest: I'm not mad at all or even really effected by it but I always think it's good to have bad reviews, because it helps to show the flaws which I must admit, where quite a few. I'm really pleased with it, which makes me more excited to get my next flick out so I can improve. Thanks to everyone you reviewed the flick for me, took the time to check it out and the time to review it. I much appericate it.

[Natalie]

Jan 20, 2009 8:59:43 GMT -5 Xplayadam said:

Using the school computer, just read all the reviews and to be honest: I'm not mad at all or even really effected by it but I always think it's good to have bad reviews, because it helps to show the flaws which I must admit, where quite a few. I'm really pleased with it, which makes me more excited to get my next flick out so I can improve. Thanks to everyone you reviewed the flick for me, took the time to check it out and the time to review it. I much appericate it.

Its taken you over 20 days to realise you can use the computer at school lmao.

Glad you didn't mind the critique then Xplay.